On the perils of such beliefs, and examples thereof; to include C.S. Lewis, Kurt Jaros, Chris Date, William Lane Craig, and others.
Resolution: “The final punishment of the risen wicked will be annihilation, the permanent end to the conscious existence of the entire person.”
The debate took place June 16th, and lasted just over 3 hours.
I’m a real stickler for deadlines, schedules, and knowing when something is *supposed* to happen. While I can be disastrously disorganized in a plethora of ways, that is not one of them. That being said, I find it very interesting what I find myself up to in the days just prior to a debate. It’s not that I’m “burnt out” on Annihilationism right now or anything – this post is proof that I’m not, as you will see – it’s that I seem to be drawn to subjects that branch out from the subjects I’ve been repeatedly dealing with during …Read more
There are the Jehovah’s Witness claims that the entire Christian church has always been wrong about, well, almost everything. Except for those few ECFs they could massage into some sort of superficial agreement, of course. Mormonism likewise asserts that all churches ceased to be true churches rather quickly following Christ’s ascension. Islam, with it’s idea of scriptural supercessionism and their revisionist version of what the Scriptures actually are, or taught, have a similar view of Christianity as a whole. It’s much the same with any other warmed-over historical error – be they large, as the wholesale replacement religions seen above …Read more
Now that we’ve done some discussion and a bit of interaction with Chris’ position – and you’ve had the opportunity to really sit down and listen through what he has to say, and what he’s had his guests on to say, I’d like to encourage you to start formulating some questions for either Chris or I to answer.
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Be sure to email Dee Dee at firstname.lastname@example.org if you want to pose a question to either participant. The debate will be pre-recorded, so Dee Dee will be asking questions on behalf of those who send them to her in advance. Make
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50:46 Joey: You know, parables! As I bring up here. Some of the parables have almost nothing in them that actually transfers over. I bring up the parable of the fish, in Matthew 13:47-50. In that parable, it’s very brief, it speaks of a fisherman, he catches fish, the bad fish he throws away, the good fish he keeps. Now, the good fish represent the saved, but you do not want to be a fish! (Laughs) Just think about it, either way you get killed. And in fact, though I don’t know what fishing culture was like back in the
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(44:23) Chris: So what do you make of it? Is it the case that punishment, by definition, is consciously, ongoingly experienced?
Ronnie: Well, I mean obviously not. Well, the punishment for some sins is pain, the punishment in certain contexts is some sort of suffering. Scripture describes many different types of punishments for sin, so you have people being struck blind, you have people being made barren, you have people’s entire family line being wiped out, you have entire nations being wiped out. Yeah, so there’s many possible types of punishment, and Scripture describes a number of those punishments. The
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“Think of how an atheist views death, and what happens when we die; like, you don’t have a mind, you can’t think, you can’t feel, you have absolutely no conscious[ness] or awareness of anything, you’re simply a corpse. That’s essentially what we’re saying happens to people. They can’t be tormented, because, like if you poke a corpse with a knife, or set it on fire, no matter what you do to it, it’s not going to feel pain, or think, or anything. It’s just inert matter. That’s all that we necessarily are saying; now, whether the atoms are destroyed, like,
It is often asserted that there is a problem (for so-called “traditionalists”) with the use of Mark 9:48 due to it’s relation with Isaiah 66:24. This problem, according to Fudge, is that 1) Jesus quotes it “without amendment” 2) That the body is “already dead” and 3) That the fire “is a consuming, irresistible fire”. He relates “salted with fire” to mean the salting of a field, or of a place in order to make it uninhabitable. He cites Fields for his source, but we aren’t told, by Fudge, why this is supposed to have any connection with the passage …Read more
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(24:33) What the Bible says is the nature of the final punishment: Jude assures his readers that the wicked will be punished, and tells us in verse 7 that Sodom and Gomorrah are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. Of course, what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah? Well, the Bible records only their destruction, and no torment, in a short span of 4 verses, in Genesis 19 after which Abraham awakes the next morning to look out at the smoke rising from its remains. No wonder that 2 Peter 2:6 likewise uses their being destroyed