Is the Qur'an the Word of God? – Debate Transcript

Debate Thesis: Is the Qur’an the Word of God?

Introductions

[12:07] [BK] ok, the floor is yours, Algo
[12:07] [PL] Very Good.
[12:07] [PL] Welcome Gentlemen.
[12:08] [PL] Let us now begin our formal debate with an intro/bio.
[12:08] [PL] Introducing MusLm :
[12:08] [PL] Name: Yasser Ali
[12:08] [PL] Nick: MusLm
[12:08] [PL] Age: 34
[12:09] [PL] Country: Pakistan
[12:09] [PL] Education: Post-Graduate of Information Technology (Australia)
[12:09] [PL] Occupation / Designation: Da’ee (Da’ee is a Muslim who invites people towards God / Islam)
[12:09] [PL] Faith: Muslim based on Quran (100%) and Hadith (Authentic)
[12:09] [PL] I have been studying Islam since 10 years in addition to whats formally taught in schools and colleges. Also, 6 years of experience debating with other faiths including Atheist, Agnostic, Christians, Secular, Jews, Hindus and several other denominations. Most effective thing in inter-faith debating according to my experience is Logic. because a person can deny Scripture or even God but can Not deny logic.

[12:09] [PL] And:

[12:09] [PL] Joshua is 32 years old, father of 6, and attends Grace Fellowship in Saucier, MS. He is a Reformed Baptist, adheres to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of faith, and has taught apologetics and church history in church venues. He blogs at http://razorskiss.net, contributes to http://choosinghats.com, and contributed one chapter to Jamin Hubner’s “The Portable Presuppositionalist“. This is his second formal, moderated debate.
[12:10] [PL] Please welcome Joshua
[12:10] [PL] Joshua: You may begin:

Opening Statement: Negative

[12:10] [JW] I’d like to thank everyone reading this – either present, or future, for their attention to and concern for the topic we are about to examine in this debate. Is the Qur’an the Word of God? My answer, as a Christian, must be no. Why this is necessary will be my focus today, and is of vital importance to Muslims and Christians alike. Christians believe, and have believed from Christianity’s inception, that Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Son of God, is the pivot point, the focus, and the central character of all created history, as well as the reference point for all of Scripture’s revelation. The Messiah, the Holy One, The Alpha and Omega, the eternal Word, the image of the invisible God, the suffering Servant – all things point to Christ, they are all summed up in Him (Eph 1:10). The One who all things were created by, for, and in; in whom all things hold together (Col 1:16-17). We believe that He eternally coexisted with the Father, and the Spirit – and that the three persons of the Trinity are one Being – one God – perfectly in accordance with the shema – “Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.” (Deu 6:4-5) This Incarnate God, the only-begotten, or “unique God” (monogenes) is the One who, in becoming flesh, explains, or exegetes, (exegeomai)the Father to us.

Yet, one quarter of Islam’s self-definition in Surah 112 is dedicated to contradicting this basic doctrine. ”Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.” (Yusuf Ali, Surah 112:1) It is unmistakeable that Mohammed, with his ignorance of the Christian Scriptures, sought to deny this doctrine. However, it is also plain that he wished to affirm their status as the Word of God, as we shall see. This contradiction is at the heart of Islam’s problem. Islam seeks to be known as a continuation of revelation from the Books which have gone before. It appeals to the Torah and the Injeel as testimonies to what it claims. Surah 4:136 (Yus) O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray. Notice – “the scripture which He sent to those before”, and “His Books”. Surah 3:84 “Say: ‘We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam).'” Notice, it refers to “that which was revealed” – but even more interestingly – says that they make “no difference between one and the other among them”. Also, the Qur’an claims that the Scriptures prior speak of Mohammed! Surah 7:157 (Yus) “Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper.” Further, we see that the Qur’an states that they, indeed, had these Scriptures. Surah 2:89 (Yus) “And when there comes to them a Book from Allah, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognised, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.”

Lest one should wonder who it is this is speaking of, let’s examine the context. Surah 2:86-88 (Yus) “These are the people who buy the life of this world at the price of the Hereafter: their penalty shall not be lightened nor shall they be helped. We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay! They say, “Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah’s Word: we need no more).” Nay, Allah’s curse is on them for their blasphemy: Little is it they believe.” Afterwards, we read this: Surah 2:90-91 (Yus) “Miserable is the price for which they have sold their souls, in that they deny (the revelation) which Allah has sent down, in insolent envy that Allah of His Grace should send it to any of His servants He pleases: Thus have they drawn on themselves Wrath upon Wrath. And humiliating is the punishment of those who reject Faith. When it is said to them, “Believe in what Allah Hath sent down, “they say, “We believe in what was sent down to us:” yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: “Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?”” I do have to say that I find the following to be the clearest, most complete description in the Qur’an of the duties and relationship of the Scriptures to those who believe in them – so I will quote a fairly large passage.

Surah 5:43-49 “But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah’s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah’s book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; And this (He commands): Judge thou between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which Allah hath sent down to thee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is Allah’s purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious. Do they then seek after a judgment of (the days of) ignorance? But who, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah?”

I will show you two other translations for 43, so as to make sure there is no mistake. [Shakir 5:43] And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat wherein is Allah’s judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers. [Pickthal 5:43] How come they unto thee for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)? Yet even after that they turn away. Such (folk) are not believers.

Also note Surah 5:66: “If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.” 5:68 – “Say: ‘O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord.” It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.'” Surah 10:94 (Yus) “If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.” Sur 20:133 (Yus) “They say: ‘Why does he not bring us a sign from his Lord?” Has not a Clear Sign come to them of all that was in the former Books of revelation?'” Surah 26:196-197 “Without doubt it is (announced) in the mystic Books of former peoples. Is it not a Sign to them that the Learned of the Children of Israel knew it (as true)?”

Thus we have a wide variety of Qur’anic testimony that the Scriptures are considered reliable. My opponent may concede this, but assert that it is speaking of a different Injeel than that which the Christians possess today. He has previously said: “we Muslims believe in the Gospel of Jesus. thats No more available.” However, since we are speaking of what the Qur’an says about the Torah and Injeel, I would ask my opponent to show us how he does, or even can know this. We have in our possession, as in Mohammed’s time, and *far* prior to Mohammed, the entirety of what is the Christian Scripture. We know what the text was far prior to Mohammed – of both the OT and NT. There is no change to the text. The Qur’an testifies to the Scriptures itself, and the Scripture’s manuscript testimony is unimpeachable. So, if my opponent wishes to assert otherwise, the burden is on him to document his assertion. I start from the Scriptures in my thinking, and as my standard for all things. I assume he does the same with the Qur’an. However, is the Qur’an a suitable starting point? The Qur’an claims to teach nothing different – in Surahs 2, 3, 5, and elsewhere. Yet, the Quran does teach different doctrines. It denies central Christian doctrines – the Trinity, the Incarnation, Atonement, and a host of other doctrines. The Qur’an claims the Scriptures are true – the Qur’an asserts doctrines contradictory to the Scriptures. The Qur’an, my friends, is self-contradictory. It cannot be explained away by “abrogation”, nor can it be explained away by allegations of “corruption”, nor can it be explained away by an appeal to the authority of the Qur’an. That is precisely the subject we are debating. My opponent has two choices. He can deny the Scripture as well as the Qur’an – or he can deny the Qur’an, and not the Scriptures. In either case, he must deny the Qur’an, due to it’s self-contradictions in many areas. I am judging by the Gospel, as even the Qur’an says. This is my central argument.

First, the Qur’an affirms the Torah and Injeel as revelations of God. It tells even the Muslims that they should be acquainted with the Torah, and follow it! Surah 6:154-157 “Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: “The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:” Or lest ye should say: “If the Book had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they.” Now then hath come unto you a clear (sign) from your Lord,- and a guide and a mercy: then who could do more wrong than one who rejecteth Allah’s signs, and turneth away therefrom? In good time shall We requite those who turn away from Our signs, with a dreadful penalty, for their turning away.”

I would immediately ask, at this point, how they would be able to follow that which was corrupted, and unavailable at the time this was written? Not to mention the fact that we are told that the Books are in the possession of the Jews and Christians, who are both to follow them, by their own respective ways. Second, my opponent may wish to assert that the Qur’an asserts that these are corrupted. Most commonly an appeal is made to 2:106 – but what is this talking about? In 2:111, Christians and Jews are commanded to bring their proof from their scriptures. Would this not be a contradiction if we were just told the Scripture was abrogated? Within 30 verses, the Qur’an says that it makes no distinction between (2:136) itself and any Scripture before. Al-Bukhari narrates that 2:106 is abrogation within the Qur’an itself: Narrated Ibn Abbas: Umar said, “Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur’an) yet we leave (out) some of what he recites”. Ubai says, “I have taken it from the mouth of Allah’s Apostle and will not leave for anything whatever”. But Allah said: “None of our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar” (Qur’an 2:106). (Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 527, p. 489; book 61)

My opponent has frequently likened the Qur’an to “Windows”, and the Scripture prior to “DOS” – with the former superseding the latter. As we have seen, this is far from the case. Also, we may recall Sur 16:101, which is clearly speaking of the Qur’an. He may also bring up 5:48, which we have addressed previously, where the Qur’an claims to be the “protector” of the preceding revelations. Some will take this to mean that it “corrects” the previous revelations. This is not the view of the early commentators, and I’d be willing to discuss that, if he’d like to challenge that claim. The Qur’an claims it is in the same stream of revelation as the Scriptures – the Books – yet, my opponent makes these assertions: “Quran clarifies that Christ Jesus was Not crucified / Killed but rather his evil diciple (Judas) was made to look like Jesus (as a miracle of God) so the Jews killed / crucified Judas instead. and the man on the cross is he Not Christ”. First, Judas is never mentioned in the text of the Qur’an in this fashion. He is mentioned in the Gospel of Barnabas, written approximately 500 years ago. I will offer the same question Dr. James White offered my opponent: “So why should I reject the consistent testimony of eye witnesses and martyrs on the basis of 40 lonely Arabic words, about which no Muslim could remember a single comment by Muhammad for 200 years after Muhammad’s death?” He refers, of course, to Surah 4:157’s account of the non-crucifixion of Christ – unattested to for 200 years in ahadith.

My opponent is in a tenuous position. As soon as he attacks the Bible’s provenance, truthfulness, and accuracy, he attacks the Qur’an’s claims to be the word of God, as it attests to those very qualities in the Scriptures. If he affirms what the Qur’an says about Christ, atonement, the Trinity – he denies the Scripture, and the Qur’an – by affirming what it says! If he claims that what the Qur’an says is true, because it is the Word of God – he has begged the question in this debate – while simultaneously denying it’s truthfulness! He is in a rather unenviable position. He must affirm what he must also deny, and deny what he must also affirm. His position is an impossible one to stand upon – therefore, we can see that the Scriptures revealed to us are his only option, and his only hope. He cannot hope to stand there, so we invite him to stand firm, as we are commanded, on the Scripture. Thank you.

[12:30] [PL] Very Well. Thank You Raz. And now let me voice MusLm for his 3,000 word intro.

Opening Statement: Positive

[12:35] [YA] Ok Is Quran the Word of God? Yes; I believe anyone who studies it deeply and understands it can never deny it being the Word of God after studying; one can never say this book was written by a man (muhammad (s.a.w.)) in the desert who could neither read or write any language

A man who lived all his life in the desert stating true scientific facts about oceans that only are known after technological advancements now. People criticise Quran of being plagerised off Bible and previous scripture. this is also impossible because Torah, Psalms and gospels were translated into Arabic much later than the complete revilition of Quran.
A Single man could Not have written such a book that covers various aspects of life giving expert opinion on each. To write it a person has to be expert of ALL fields and for Muhammad (s.a.w.) who never went to any school, colledge or University; it is simply impossible.

After acquiring knowledge of Quran we come to know that this book presents a wide diversity of facts; practical information Covering astronomy, oceanography, geology, Embryology, theology, history, historical predictions, genealogy, agriculture, biology, ethics, politics, law (sharia), sociology, economics, family laws act. Act.
This book can only be from God who can provide perfect information and expert instructions about all the above mentioned fields. Quran is a book of guidance; meaning it is a book that teaches a person on earth how to live in acordance with God’s will so that he attains success Not only in this worldly life but also in the after life

Mirraculusly; there is Not a single error or contradiction in this Book (a manual of about 1000 pages). and this is unlike other scriptures like Bible who has several known errors, contradictions and scientific errors. even today with modern word processing technology and spell-checkers; the authors of books appologise in advance that there can be errors in their book and that they will fix them in later additions. Quran written 1400 years ago challenges its readers to find any error or contradiction in it and also to write something like it. Now we will observe some facts about Quran convinceing us of it being God’s word.

Stages Of The Creation Of Man:
Quran 23:12-14 And indeed We created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth). Thereafter We made him (the offspring of Adam) as a Nutfah (mixed drops of the male and female sexual discharge and lodged it) in a safe lodging (womb of the woman). Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So Blessed is Allâh, the Best of creators. Consider what this well-known and respected scientist of embryology declared upon studying the Qur’aanic verse related to his discipline, and his conclusion that Muhammad (peace be upon him), must have been a Messenger from Allah. Quran in this verse is talking about embryonic development of human that can only be seen with a microscope and sophicticated equipment that we could Not think of 1400 years from today. this verse can be explained by qouting scientific discoveries and snaps affirming the verse but I would like to skip to the next fact.

Quran On the Sensory Characteristics of the Skin:
Quran 4:56 Surely! Those who disbelieved in Our signs We shall burn them in Fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for other skins that they may taste the punishment. Truly, Allâh is Ever Most Powerful, All¬Wise. This verse states that the skins of the sinners will be burned in hell with fire and then later will be replaced by new skins so that they should taste the torment. we today know that sensory receptor cells are under the skin that makes us feel. for those who loose thier skins can No longer feel the pain
who could have mentioned such facts 1400 years ago. Not a man; only God could have.

Some Qur’aanic Verses about Geology & The Origin Of The Earth: (a completely different subject):
Quran 21:30 Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? in this verse God is talking about those scientists with telescopes and asking. have they Not observed the fact that they have recently discoverd (naming it big-bang) already mentioned by Quran?

Facts About Seas & Oceans:
A man (Muhammad (s.a.w)) who never went to oceans is talking about oceanography: Quran 55:19-20 He has let loose the two seas (the salt and the fresh water) meeting together. Between them is a barrier which none of them can transgress. With regard to the partitions between the different seas, he explained that these bodies of water are not one homogeneous sea as it appears to us. Rather they are different seas, distinguished by varying degrees of salinity, temperature and density. In this slide, here the white lines represent partitions between two different seas (not shown – WWW Ed.) Each partition divides two seas that differ in temperature, salinity, density, marine biology and oxygen dissolubility. Scientists dicovered this phonominon in 1942 after hundreds of marine research stations were set up. In it they observed the divider between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic Ocean. these 2 bodies of water flow togather yet mix Not with each other. the unseen barrier as the Quran mentioned

Deep Seas & Oceans: Following is a phenomina that can only be observed using oxygen-supplied diving gear that man has developed recently. 1400 years ago was a time when oil-lamp was considered technology Quran 24:40 Or [the state of a disbeliever] is like the darkness in a vast deep sea, overwhelmed with waves topped by waves, topped by dark clouds, (layers of) darkness upon darkness: if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! And he for whom Allâh has not appointed light, for him there is no light. God in this verse is mentioning the likeness of a (rejector of faith) / disbeliever while stating a scientific fact that can be observed by diving 1000 feet deep inside the ocean. The light rays during day are absorbed by the layers of oceans as the diver goes deep. and till the time there is total darkness a person can Not see his own hand. How amazing!

Astronomical facts: Quran 41:11 Then He rose over (Istawâ) towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: “Come both of you willingly or unwillingly.” They both said: “We come, willingly. This verse mentions that the planets were smoke before they were created. today people at observatories can see new starts forming in this way and thus the scientists affirm the fact that our universe also could ahve been smoke earlier.

Quran besides mentioning confirmed scientific facts also gave accurate predictions.
Victory of Byzantine Empire: Quran 30:2-4 The Romans have been defeated. In the nearer land (Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Palestine), and they, after their defeat, will be victorious… …Within three to nine years. The decision of the matter, before and after (these events) is only with Allâh, (before the defeat of Romans by the Persians, and after, the defeat of the Persians by the Romans). And on that Day, the believers (i.e. Muslims) will rejoice (at the victory given by Allâh to the Romans against the Persians) Historians confime that pridiction of the Quran was right and after 9 years of this verse; the victory was achived. Only God can make 100% accurate predictions like this and Not men. Muhammad (s.a.w.) definately didn’t have microscope, diving gear or telescopes to observe all this Who told him about these things? should we Not think?

Quran 4:82 Will they not then ponder on the Quran? If it had been from other than God they would have found therein much contradiction and incongruity.
Apart from all these interesting sceintific knowledge the Authenticity of Quran can also be proven by various other facts like. this Quran althoug, being a book of Muslims mentions Jesus Christ (a prophet of Christians) more than Muhammad (s.a.w.). the Quran mentions Jesus Christ 25 times whereas Muhamma d(s.a.w) only 4-5 times had it be written by Muhmmad (s.a.w) himself as many non-Muslims criticise; there was No need to mention previous prophets. Also, Muhammad (s.a.w.) in Quran is introduced as a slave of Allah (s.w.t.) and Not as a son of God (like people believed Jesus christ to be) Why would a man write a book can mention himself as a slave of God? these are things that point towards Quran being only from God and Not from a man. Mention of the Virgin Marry (the Mother of Jesus Christ): chapter 19 of the Quran is named as surah Mariam (Chapter Marry) honoring the Mother of jesus Christ. why would a man in his book dedicate an entire chapter of his book to the mother of another man? for any person his own mother is the priority. Not only that, Quran protects the character of Marry after she was alleged to have illeagle relations with men while she brought Jesus Christ as a baby born without a father. Jews abuse the character of Marry accusing her of adultry and Quran defends her. Quran 3:42 And (remember) when the angels said: “O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allâh has chosen you, purified you (from polytheism and disbelief), and chosen you above the women of the ‘Alamîn (mankind and jinn) (of her lifetime).” this verse also declares Marry to be a woman chosen above all. Why would a man need to praise someone he has No relations with? It can only be God’s word. Quran mentions verses where God Criticises Muhammad (s.a.w): there are verses where God criticises Muhammad (s.a.w) taking him to account correcting him. Like; in one verse God asks Muhammad (s.a.w) as to who is he to make forbidden what I have made lawful. this verse was revieled when Prophet Muhammad (S.a.w) forbade himself from eating honey. and God corrected him. Quran 69: 44-47 And if he (Muhammad SAW) had forged a false saying concerning Us (Allâh swt), We surely would have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might), And then we certainly would have cut off his life artery (Aorta), And none of you could witheld Us from (punishing) him. This is such a harsh verse against prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) that he NEVER could have written it if he had any authority over this book ! God is simply affirming the reader of Quran that This is MY revilition and Muhammad (s.a.w.) had NO authority over it what so ever! No Human or Sprite or Angel has any authority to edit even a word of the Quran agaisnt God’s will Quran is completely God’s word in which there is No doubt. as it is mentioned within the Quran itself… Quran 2:2 This is the Book (the Qur’ân), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqûn [the pious and righteous persons who fear Allâh much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allâh much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)].

Correction of Errors in past scriptures:
Many non-Msulims especially Jews and Christians allege Quran of being plagerised from their scripture (i.e. Torah, Psalms and gospels). If so, how come Quran only copied the correct statements of the past scriptures with Not copying the errors and contradictions in them?
We believe the past scriptures also to be from same God as is mentioned… Quran 2:87 And indeed, We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear signs and supported him with Gabriel… So if these books were from same God then how can one allege Quran of being plagerised? it will mean plagerising from his own past writings. and that is Not plagerisation it is mentioning of facts that can be repeated and some stay constant. Bible on one side states that God became man and took the punnishment for the sins of man going off the way to forgive. and on other side it mentions (true) stories like submergin the earth with floods and commanding Abraham (mpbuh) to slay his son (just to test his obedience). these are the errors and contradictions of christianity drive Christians off God to become Atheists and I have listened to many such cases. I believe they are rightly confused; Quran removes these confusions and so a logical person lilek me is convinced to follow it completely. I believe they are rightly confused; Quran removes these confusions and so a logical person lilek me is convinced to follow it completely. Trinity is another confusing concept of Christianity that is preached by the Church more than by the Bible. Amazingly; the word “trinity” is Not there in any Bible any Gospel; yet it is the foundation of the modern Christianity. It Not only contradicts the Clear verses of the Quran but also verses of Torah… The Bible — Exodus 20:3-5 “You shall have no other gods before me. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or that is on the earth beneath or that is in the water below. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, This verse of the torah affirms Quran and rejects the concept of Trinity where likenesses of man and angel are given to God.

the word Trinity may Not be in the Bible, but it is in the Quran… Quran 4:171 O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, (“Be!” – and he was) which He bestowed on Mary and a spirit created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers… …Say not: “Trinity!” Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One God, Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. This is how Quran corrects the corruption of the previous scriptures and that which corrects can Not be alleged as plagerised

Quran can Not be corrupted:
Allah (S.w.t.) says… indded We have revieled the Quran and We are its protectors. God has Not protected the former books from corruption because after the revilition of Quran there is No need for the previous books. like a phone company when publishes current year’s phone directory; the past dicrectories are Not needed. and they are No more protected or checked. simmilarly, After the revilition of Quran; torah, Gospels and Psalms are Not needed because the current Shari’a (Law) is that of Quran. The previous laws are updated with the current shari’a before the revilition of Quran the Shari’ah was Torah-based and the prophacy was that of Jesus Christ. whereas, today the prophacy is of Muhammad (S.a.w.) till the end and God’s will is the Quran. So today if a person wants to live by God’s will, he will have to live by Quran and Not past scriptures. this can be explained with another simple example… After development of Windows Operating system we No longer need DOS diskettes. and neither we need to save them. After Quran, there is No need for past scripture accept just as a confirmation of whats now reveiled inthe QUran. Although many parts of Bible have been courrupted, yet we believe there are verses in the Bible even now that are right and make sense. these are the verses that can be reffered to as former statemnts of God. and Not those who contradict with Quran / facts.

[14:44] [PL] Thank You MusLm

Rebuttal: Negative

[JW] In my opponent’s opener, he has presented the argument that the authorship of the Qur’an is miraculous – because 1) Mohammed was unlettered (Sur 7:155-158) 2) He gave scientific proofs far before he could have known them. What the reader might be interested to know is that my opponent, for the bulk of his “science in the Qur’an” presentation in his opener, is taken from the “It is truth” website. It may be found at http://www.it-is-truth.org/. As he was making his presentation, I noted that the folks at Answering Islam have provided full responses to the claims made at this site, which may be found here: http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/It-is-truth/. Since I’m not overly interested in debating with selections from this website’s argumentation, I refer you to the second site I linked, for additional reading. 3) He gave prophecies – specifically mentioned was the Byzantine prophecy. 4) That Jesus is mentioned more than Mohammed in the Qur’an 5) That Mohammed is pronounced a slave of Allah, not as the Son of God 6) That Mary is mentioned, has a surah dedicated to her, and is defended from the allegations of the Jews. She is also declared to be chosen above all, not the mother of Mohammed. 7) The Qur’an criticizes Mohammed.

The answers to these arguments are simple. 3) What my opponent didn’t tell you is that Heraclius did not invade the Persian empire until 627 – and was not victorious until 628 AD. 13-14 years after the prophecy which was to be “fulfilled” in 3-9 years. Secondly, could not Allah be more precise? Biblical prophecy, when givein dates, is eminently precise. in 4), how does this give an argument for the Qur’an being the Word of God? Simple because it mentions a prophet who, by the standards which Allah sets – the prevailing of His followers, that His followers become Muslim – is negated almost instantly, and they all become apostates? Where Allah himself deceives Jesus’ followers, and they all “follow a partner of Allah”, and die for that, due to Allah’s deception?
For 5), the fact that Christ is, and is mentioned frequently, as the Son of God in the Injeel is a serious problem for the Muslim. The fact that Mohammed, supposedly the last and greatest prophet, is given a lower title, is also problematic. How is this an argument, when the prophet accorded all the special signs and wonders – Jesus – accomplishes nothing? For 6), this is hardly a positive argument, given the fact that the Qur’an somehow believes Christians accord her the status of God, and Surah 19 is an extended polemic against this false assumption. For 7), I would submit that the same argument could be made for Peter, Paul, John, and many other disciples – who all have negative things said about them. Are they also prophets, and their writings the Word of God, by that same standard? If my opponent’s argument is correct, this would have to be the case. In fact, if my opponent’s argument is the case, Judas was a prophet, as were the prophets of Baal who opposed Elijah! After all, negative things were said about them. I will address his further arguments at this point. My opponent said: “Many non-Msulims especially Jews and Christians allege Quran of being plagerised from their scripture … If so, how come Quran only copied the correct statements of the past scriptures with Not copying the errors and contradictions in them?” First – can he provide a quote where I said it was plagiarised? Secondly, does the statement “If so, how come Quran only copied the correct statements of the past scriptures with Not copying the errors and contradictions in them?” not beg the question, viciously? My opponent said: “We believe the past scriptures also to be from same God as is mentioned…” and cites 2:87. Can my opponent explain why the qur’an differs so significantly from the Books given prior? Are these signs clear, or were they confused – such as your claim that Judas was substituted for Jesus – at Allah’s will?

My opponent said: “So if these books were from same God then how can one allege Quran of being plagerised? it will mean plagerising from his own past writings. and that is Not plagerisation it is mentioning of facts that can be repeated and some stay constant.” That would be a rather silly argument. Thankfully, I have not, and will not make that argument. Once again, I have claimed no such thing. A plagiarizer would do a better job at copying – much like he did with his utilization of the “It is truth” material. I was able to recognize exactly where it comes from. The Qur’anic “restatement” of the Biblical testimony is so garbled and misquoted that it’s barely recognizable as the same characters.

My opponent said: “Trinity is another confusing concept of Christianity that is preached by the Church more than by the Bible. Amazingly; the word “trinity” is Not there in any Bible any Gospel; yet it is the foundation of the modern Christianity.” That is an interesting assertion. We don’t assert that the *word* Trinity is in the Scripture – that is from a Latin term, to identify a doctrine. Of course it won’t be in the Greek or Hebrew Scriptures. However, it is attested to by a host of Scriptural sources. I hope to get into these during cross. My opponent said: “It Not only contradicts the Clear verses of the Quran but also verses of Torah…” and cites Exodus 20:3-5. He goes on to say “This verse of the torah affirms Quran and rejects the concept of Trinity where likenesses of man and angel are given to God” This objection, as can be clearly seen, only makes sense if the mistaken definition of the Qur’an is used for “Trinity”. We are monotheists, not tritheists – yet the assumption is made that, following the Qur’an, this is not the case. I reject that assumption, on obvious grounds. My opponent said: “the word Trinity may Not be in the Bible, but it is in the Quran…” – I’m sorry, but this is just simply not the case. The word used in the Qur’an is “three”, not “Three in one”. The latter would have to be used in order to make this claim stick – and it does not. My opponent said: ” This is how Quran corrects the corruption of the previous scriptures and that which corrects can Not be alleged as plagerised” Again, I have made no claim of plagiarisation. The Qur’an clearly does not copy from the Bible – because what it says is *different than* what the Bible says. By saying the above, however, he falls into the horns of my argument in the opener. How can he assert the corruption of that which the Quran asserts the reliability of? My opponent said: “God has Not protected the former books from corruption because after the revilition of Quran there is No need for the previous books. like a phone company when publishes current year’s phone directory; the past dicrectories are Not needed. and they are No more protected or checked.” This is an interesting statement – because we have copies of the same Scripture that we are told to judge by in Mohammed’s time – in our hands today. We have manuscripts from FAR before Mohammed’s time, the citations of the Church Fathers, and a textual history that is unimpeachable. How can this be claimed without denying the Qur’an? My opponent said: “So today if a person wants to live by God’s will, he will have to live by Quran and Not past scriptures.” Further: ” After development of Windows Operating system we No longer need DOS diskettes. and neither we need to save them. After Quran, there is No need for past scripture accept just as a confirmation of whats now reveiled inthe QUran.” Further: “Although many parts of Bible have been courrupted, yet we believe there are verses in the Bible even now that are right and make sense. these are the verses that can be reffered to as former statemnts of God. and Not those who contradict with Quran / facts.” There we have a clear statement of my opponent’s presupposed dismissal of what His own Qur’an testifies to, as the Word of God – which we are to judge by, which Mohammed is told to judge by, so that he may not be among those who doubt. What was he told to judge by, if it was corrupted? In closing, I would just like to point out that my opponent’s opening statement falls directly where I said it would – into the horn of the dilemma it creates. It affirms and denies contrary principles – and therefore, cannot be considered the Word of God. Thank you, and I await my opponent’s rebuttal to my opening statement.

[15:10] [PL] Very Good Thank You RazorsKiss MusLm: you may begin your rebuttal 1,500 words max.

Rebuttal: Positive

[15:22] [YA] My Opponent Mr. Josh called Jesus Christ as God incarnate. I wonder how can a person with so much information say such a thing. Never does Christ called Himself God or God incarnate and “son” means two… 1) Son-made 2) Son-Begotten. While Jesus Christ calls Allah (S.w.t.) as “Father in heaven” he is calling himself his son (Son-made or Called) and Not as son-Begotten. Because begetting is an animalystic act of much lower beings than God. God is High, Holy and Exalted and associating animalystic acts of sex and begetting offsprings is a blaspheme agaisnt His holiness. this is one of the major flaws of Christianity to believe Christ to be begotten of God. Quran clerifies missconceptions the Church preaches and even it can be prooven from the Bible as it mentions Christ to be a “Word” of God. A command “Be” and became Jesus Christ, without a father. this should Not confuse Christians to beleiving that God begot him. can my word be me myself? can your word beyou yourself? then how can a Word of God be God Himself? this is simple logic For Allah (S.w.t.) to Create a million Jesuses is a matter of saying a word “Be” without a Father and without a mother. No big deal, and He does Not have to beget Messiha means Not God incarnate or Son of God if we study the definition of the word. Messiha is a Hebrew word that means Christos in Greek that means Christ in English that means the annointed; meaning chosen for a specific task. According to this definition every Messenger of God can be called Christ including Moses and Muhammad (s.a.w) although, I know that this word is used only for Jesus and Not the rest. The word used for Muhammad (s.aw..) is Rasool The word used for Muhammad (s.aw..) is Rasool that means almost the same in Arabic language Flesh and God are 2 opposite things. How can Christians associate the unholy with God the Holy. This according to Quran is a blaspheme agaisnt God’s holineness. How can a Purity-concious God become flesh? the One who wnats us all to sing His holiness all the time? Its like a human becoming a filthy bug or an ant which we never would like to be. Qurah 4:136 as qouted by my opponent affirms that scripture was given to previous nations but never commands us to follow it. It only commands us to believe that Torah, Psalms and Gospels were (NOT ARE) Former words of God. in Quran 2:89 God only commands us to observe the Past Scriptures as a confirmation of what is Now being stated in the Quran (Because of the same source) . We see Bible / past scriptures as ruins of a city where a person can still figure out as to what these places whould have been like while matching it with the Quran to be more confirmingly convincing. as I Clerified the facts agaisnt Trinity by Using Torah. Although, we dont need torah now as the Quran is sufficient but torah just cofirmed what we already believed through Quran and that is what God is commanding in Quran 2:89 Quran 2:86-88 is mentioned by my Opponent. So? … None of these verses command us to “Follow” or Live according to the past scriptures. and we do beleive All verses of the Quran My Opponent Quotes 5:43-49 but leaves 5:42 because Quran 5:42 has the answer. Quran 5:42 (They like to) listen to falsehood, to devour anything forbidden. So if they come to you (O Muhammad SAW), either judge between them, or turn away from them. If you turn away from them, they cannot hurt you in the least. And if you judge, judge with justice between them. Verily, Allâh loves those who act justly. this is the verse God is talking about behaviour of some people-of-Scripture living under Muslim Government as they try to avoid being judged by the law of God. God gives an option to the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) (Muslim Ruler) to either leave them (dont judge for them) for to judge for them. in Quran 5:43 God is stating about those facts and punnihsments (Still there in the corrupted Bible) as to how can they avoid them? e.g. the punnishment of adultry has always been death-by-stoning. even if they (people-of-scripture) want to avoid the Quranic Shari’a, how can they turn a blind eye to wahts still there in the Bible (their own book)? Quran 5:44 Verily, We DID send down the Taurât (Torah) [to Mûsa (Moses)], therein WAS guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submittED themselves to Allâh’s Will, judgED for the Jews. And the rabbis and the priests [too judged for the Jews by the Taurât (Torah) after those Prophets] for to them was entrusted the protection of Allâh’s Book, and they were witnesses thereto. Therefore fear not men but fear Me (O Jews) and sell not My Verses for a miserable price. And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed, such are the Kâfirûn (i.e. disbelievers – of a lesser degree as they do not act on Allâh’s Laws).

In this verse God is taking about the Past and Not the present At the time Torah was sent down; It WAS the law; It WAS the Shari’a. Not today and God in the later part of this verse is Warning jews that they should Not corrupt their Bible (Torah) to avoid commands and punnishemnts to gain a small price. This is pointing towards corruption of Bible There is No confusion or contradiction in the Quran and things are very clear. I never said that my opponent Mr. Josh has alleged Quran of being Plagerised. I said Many Non-Muslims especially Christians and Jews allege Quran of being Plagerised from previous scripture. So it’s a general context as many have questioned me during debates so I wanted to clerify it. Quran 26:196 qouted by my opponent mentions that the Jew scholars knew about Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) that he is suppose to come as his prophacy was mentioned in thier scriptures. but when he came, they rejected him because of arrogance that Muhammad (s.a.w.) is Not from our tribe and he is from a tribe of poor people they used to look down upon. God further states that the people of scripture would have accepted the Quran if it had been from Non-Arab source. Therefore, because of prejudice, they rejected the Quran and God made them astray. Similarly Quran 5:66 – 68 are also talking about the past and Not the present. At the time they were the law, today they are Not.
None of the Quranic verses qouted by my opponent state that the privous scriptures are protected and they can Not be corrupted. As the Quran mentions about itself. Quran 2:106 Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allâh is able to do all things? It simply means what It says. these could be the verses of Bible being replaced by Quran now. Just like Windows have simply replaced DOS and today we No more need to use DOS (Disk Operating System) Quran 5:47 also commands us to believe that Scripture WAS revieled on the past nations and the holy Books that WERE revieled

JUDAS and Crucifiction:
Regarding Crucifiction Quran is very clear that God made Judas to look like Jesus Christ Mirraculusly so that those who wanted to punnish Jesus christ (the noble) got the sinner and the Sinner got punnished as just logic. God punnishes Not the noble for the sins of the sinner. This is another Flaw of Christianity that makes noble suffer for the sins of sinners and then lets the sinners go free. Its like the judge hanging himslef before the criminals and then leting the criminals go. {Laughs} and how come this Crucifiction of Judas be mentioned by Bible; while Christ was already assended upto heavens at the time? The person absent can Not write about it. the historians who saw the Crusifixtion must have seen Judas on the Cross but because he was made to look like Jesus Chirst, they had written it about Jesus Christ. God decieved the Jews who wanted to kill Christ and also decieved Judas who needed to be punnished for his betrayal. and god does what He wills. Quranic stanse on crucifiction is far more logical than the Christian proceedings.

[16:39] [PL] Very well. Thank You MusLm. Now RazorsKiss may begin. Cross Examine 25 questions.
[16:42] [PL] RazorsKiss: you may begin asking questions of MusLm .

Cross-Examination: Negative

[16:42] [JW] 1. Can you define the Christian doctrine of the Trinity for me, as Christian orthodoxy defines it, please?

[16:45] [YA] We do Not need to study various forms of Trinity through History or groups because trinity in every form is Prohibited and it is a Great sin to associate ANYTHING or anyone with God in any mode of definition. Many christians define Trinity differently. some say its like forms of Water i.e. Ice , Gas act. while other try to define it like an egg with yolk, white and shell act. So these things really dont matter. It is seen as sin / blaspheme agaisnt God in any way.

[16:47] [JW] 2. Can you define the Christian doctrine of the Trinity as is defined by the Qur’an in S 4:171, S. 5:17, 5:70-75, 2. 5:116-117, please?

[16:51] [YA] these verses Clerify and warns the Christians that Jesus Christ was only a human servant of God and Not a part of any trinity as they say.
[16:52] [YA] and that None can garantee Salvation accept God Himself. this is a clerification agaisnt the christian Faith as the Church garantees salvation to whoever accepts the sacrifice of Christ Quran 5:72 Clerifies that Salvation is forbidden for those who associate partners with God in Worship

[16:56] [JW] 3. “Within the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and coeternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” (James White, The Forgotten Trinity, pg 26) – this is an *orthodox* definition, which I specifically mentioned in my first question – does this match the Qur’an’s as “Father, Son, Mary”?

[16:58] [YA] Through history and through denominations, the definition of Trinity have differed, but it matters Not. What matter is Salvation and Not the type of Trinity. Any tiype of Trinity is Not acceptable by God according to Not only the Quran but also Torah as I qouted earlier So anything associated with God is the greatest sin.

[17:01] [JW] 4. Given your willingness to rely on argumentation concerning “begotten” – can you explain the provenance and etymology of the word “monogenes”, as used in the text of John 1:14 and 1:18, from which this translational term is derived?

[17:06] [YA] We Muslims believe that this word “Begotten” is a later addition in the Scripture and caould Not have been used by Christ. There is a version of Bible called “RSV” revised Standard Version in which this word was thrown out as a fabrication consulting the most encient Biblical manuscripts.
[17:08] [YA] this revision was performed by 50 co-operationg Christian denominations agreeing upon that this word is a later addition.

[17:09] [JW] Point of order: My question was about the term “monogenes”, in the original Greek, not the term “begotten”, used only in translation – can I get an answer concerning monogenes?

[17:12] [JW] Okay, moving on.
[17:12] [JW] 5. Since you cannot, are you aware that “monogenes” is formed from the greek roots of “mono” – one and “genes” – kind, or type?
[17:12] [YA] Monogenes: Ligitamate Child. This word might have been used for Child-Called or Son-Made as I stated earlier; but Not begotten
[17:13] [YA] being a special child is Not as blasphemous as “begotten Child” is
[17:14] [YA] the word Monogenes has No relation with Begetting

[17:15] [JW] 5. Are you aware that “monogenes” is formed from the greek roots of “mono” – one and “genes” – kind, or type?
[17:16] [YA] ok; How can Flesh be of one type with the Holy God in Heaven?
[17:16] [JW] Point of order – question in the response.
[17:17] [YA] Yes I am aware about the definition

[17:19] [JW] 6. Since this is so, would it not be proper to recognize that the term is actually signifying “one of a kind”? Given the context of the prologue of John’s Gospel, where the Word is with God, and is God – is this not saying that the Word is the one of a kind Son of God, of the nature of God, and thus not associated with, but identified as God?

[17:22] [YA] Can my Word be me myself? can you word be you yourself? then how can God’s word be God Himself? Bible may state it, but it makes little sense. and the verse where Christ says I and God are one means one in perpose and Not in person.
[17:23] [YA] It simply means that Christ and God support same agenda of God ans so they are one.
[17:24] [YA] Quran is very clear about what it says. It says that For God it is easy to create without a father by just commanding a being into existance. “Be” and it becomes

[17:24] [JW] 7. I think no more purpose is being served by this fundamental confusion. On to a different topic. On what basis do you claim that flesh, created by God for Himself, and pronounced to be “good” – is unholy?

[17:26] [YA] very simple; a man of flesh is an unholy being that needs to take a bath and go to toilet daily and contains all sorts of impurities that can never be associated to God in the least. because is Holy and High far exalted above His creation
[17:28] [YA] It is pronounce to be good acording to human standards. Purified also means acording to human standards and still can never be associated with God. Good in deeds it mean and Not Holy.

[17:29] [JW] 8. Are you aware that this the concept of flesh being fundamentally unholy is held neither by the Jews, nor by Christians, but by the Gnostics? Further, that before them, certain Greek schools of philosophy held to this view, which were the influence Gnosticism sprang from?

[17:32] [YA] It is just an observable fact and we dont need to research much on this. we can be called purified or baptised, but according to God’s standards its unholy and thus becomes a blaspheme against His Highness to call Him flesh / human

[17:33] [JW] 9. Are you aware of the distinction – both in the Old and New Testaments – between *sinful* – or forbidden, or unclean – “flesh” and flesh set apart for, say, sacrifice? Is not Jesus held to be, by John the Baptist, the “Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world”?

[17:35] [YA] there are 2 types of uncleanlinesses… 1) physical uncleanliness like dirt, dust act. that we can observ 2) sins; who make our souls unclean.
[17:37] [YA] We only believe what Jesus Christ said himself and we dont recognise Paul, Peter or John and their statements contradict the statements of Christ.

[17:37] [JW] 10. How do you explain the Qur’an’s frequent testimony to the Old and New Testaments which the Jews and Christians were said to possess at the time of Mohammed, as the Word of God, that which was revealed? Were they “corrupted”, as you say they were, prior to, or after, the time of Mohammed?

[17:41] [YA] the previous scriptures might have been corrupted at the time of revilition of Quran. Although, Quran only refers to them as Former / currently-invalid word of God. We are just supose to believe that God did reviel them to the previous nations. We are Not commanded to read / follow or live by them

[17:43] [JW] 11. I’m asking you whether you are claiming the Christian Scriptures were corrupted before or after Mohammed – which is it? If you are making the claim, I’d like to knowwhat is being said in it. Before, or after – and can you provide me any manuscript evidence of this claim?

[17:46] [YA] I have No idea on the timeline of the corruption of Bible. I only know they are corrupted with cirtinity because of observable errors, and Contradictions in it.

[17:48] [JW] 12. I simply note that my opponent cannot answer this question. In your rebuttal, you claimed that the verses I used in my opener are all speaking of the past. However, how do you explain Sur 6:154-157 in this fashion? Muslims are commanded to examine them, so that they may not be among those who have doubts, are they not?

[17:56] [YA] Quran 6:154-7 are also talking about PAST. We GAVE Moses the Book… again, we are Not commanded to follow them. Quran is permitting us to check past scriptures jsut for confirmation of the Quran that There is Only One God and Same is the Author who sent Jesus and Moses with past scriptrues so that Muslims dont doubt about Quran.

[17:57] [JW] 13. I’d dispute that answer; are they also not commanded to “follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy”, contra to your statement that Muslims are not commanded to follow it?

[17:59] [YA] God is just telling us history; that He GAVE the scripture to previous nations so that THEY should follow and live by them. Not us now.

[18:00] [JW] 14. Once again – Look at the next verse – “the book was sent down to two peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study” – is that not speaking of the Scriptures? That is not speaking of history when it claims that Muslims are to follow it in the preceding, is it?

[18:00] [YA] if Quran commands us to follow the previous scripture; I would like my opponent to qoute the part of verse here.
[18:01] [JW] point of order: are you asking for a clarification of my previous question, which did so?
[18:02] [YA] Yes; Question 13 and 14 talk about the same. so please Quote part of the verse that commands us Muslims now to follow past scripture

[18:03] [JW] Surah 6:155 And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: (YUS) <-- I quoted this in Question 13, and followed up concerning vs 156 in question 14. [18:04] [YA] Quran 6:155 is talking about Quran and Not previous scripture. My opponent have missunderstood what it says. [18:06] [JW] 15. If this is so, why does Surah 6:157 say this? “Or lest ye should say: “If the Book had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they.”” – has not the Qur’an been sent down to Muslims?

[18:08] [YA] Quran 6:157 Or lest you (pagan Arabs) should say: “If only the Book had been sent down to us, we would surely have been better guided than they (Jews and Christians).” So now has come unto you a clear proof (the Qur’ân) from your Lord, and a guidance and a mercy. Who then does more wrong than one who rejects the signs of Allâh and turns away therefrom? We shall requite those who turn away from Our signs with an evil torment, because of their turning away (from them).
[18:10] [YA] This verse is talking about Arabs who did Not accept Quran although prior to that they prayed to God that we will be guided if we are given a book like them (jews and Christians)

[18:11] [JW] 16. I’m aware of the context of Sur 26:196, as you informed us of in your rebuttal – my point was – is that an appeal to a corrupted Scripture, or one they no longer had in their possession – or is that an appeal to an extant Scripture, in their possession?

[18:12] [YA] I recommed my opponent to qoute Quran in Englsih translation by Dr. Mohsin Khan as it explains the verses better and removes confusion. www.QuranExplorer.com
[18:13] [YA] Quran 26:196 And verily, it (the Qur’ân, and its revelation to Prophet Muhammad SAW) is (announced) in the Scriptures [i.e. the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] of former people.
[18:15] [YA] This is God telling about Quran being mentioned in the previous scriptrues. As I said there are many simmilarities.
[18:15] [YA] and prediction of coming of Muhammad (s.a.w) is also there in the Bible

[18:17] [JW] 17. If the Qur’an is the protector, or guardian, of the “former” books – why were they not protected? Is it that poor a protector? They were supposedly corrupted at some time, (and my opponent cannot give us an answer to when) – what protects the Qur’an, and what surety do we have that, unlike the Scriptures, which state that the Word of God stands forever, the Qur’an will stand?

[18:20] [YA] God claims to be the protector of Quran as His currently valid book and His currently valid Law. Former books were protected till when they were valid.today they simply are Not. as I have explained with examples in opening. Quran is protected till the day of judgment.

[18:21] [JW] 18. You stated “these could be the verses of Bible being replaced by Quran now” – while hypotheticals are nice, can you show me where the Qur’an says this, please? Where does the Qur’an say that, where does it say the Bible is abrogated, or corrupted?

[18:24] [YA] the revilition of the Quran itself if the abrogation of the past books. and the way it mentions the Past books as information on history makes it very clear that the previous law is now being replaced. any verse above can be qouted.

[18:25] [JW] 19. In Surah 61:14, what are Christ’s followers said to be?

[18:27] [YA] Again Quran 61:14 is talking about History as Christ was a true messenger of God who asked people to join Him for the way of God and those who joined him HAD success over their enemies. there is Nothing unclear about it

[18:28] [JW] 20. Did they prevail as Muslims? Can you show us Peter, John, James, or the like prevailing as Muslims, please?

[18:31] [YA] Yes; They were all Muslims. We will have to know the definition of the word “Muslim” to prove it. The Arabic word Muslim means “One who submits to the will of God” didn’t Christ and his deciples submit to God’s will (at that time will of God being torah / Gospel)? so they were Muslims in Arabic although the word Muslim is Not used for Christ because Arabic came later and Jesus spoke hebrew.

[18:33] [JW] 21. Well, can you tell us why these “muslims” didn’t prevail as “muslims”, but the worship of Christ prevailed in their testimony in the Gospels and the Epistles, as well as in their deaths for that belief?

[18:35] [YA] There is a time of 600 years in the desend of Christ and revilition of Quran. so, Quran 61:14 is talking about the time of Christ and near future, Not few centuries later.

[18:38] [JW] 22. We’re not talking centuries later. We’re talking about the first 70 years after the death of Christ, in which all of the Gospels and Epistles were written. The testimony of the new Testament is to the deity of Christ, and His worship as such. Are you claiming the NT was written centuries later?

[18:41] [YA] We believe people like John, Paul and Peter after decend of Jesus Christ twisted the Islamic teachings of Christ into christianity and human worship. Jesus Christ had never allowed it had he been there.

[18:42] [JW] 23. So, the ones who “twisted” the teachings were made to prevail as Allah said – or Allah’s promise was broken, and the wrong men prevailed?

[18:43] [YA] Not at all; Quran never mentions Paul, Peter or John. It says those who sided with him .
[18:44] [YA] of the Deciples. Paul was Not one of the deciples of Christ as I recall.

[18:46] [JW] 24. I don’t see any way that this could be so, given that 61:14 says that those who were to prevail were His disciples – Sur 3:52 says that they were Muslims, and Sur 5:111 says that those were who were inspired by Allah. It’s very plain that Jesus had 12 disciples – and only one was unfaithful, and was replaced. How do you resolve this?

[18:47] [YA] Modern Bible is definately Not written by those noble deciples who are mentioned in the verse of Quran
[18:48] [YA] Barnabas was also one of the deciples of Christ while Chritians reject the Gospel of Barnabas completely. Quran is 100% right about what it says and we Muslims beleive and follow it.
[18:50] [YA] Again; Quran 5:111 mentions the Deciples calling themselves Muslims of course in Hebrew they might have used other words to accept the commands of God for themselves.

[18:50] [PL] One last question for RazorsKiss

[18:50] [JW] 25. I’m sorry, but that seems to be a completely unfounded claim. The early church was quite particular about the authorship of the canonical Gospels. I’ll address Barnabas next round. Can you give us any evidence whatsoever that your claim to authorship is true? Can you tell us what date John was written?

[18:52] [YA] My field is Not History; it is Salvation and Logic of Islam. So a historian can give the timeline details of the corruption of Bible better than me and also who corrupted it.

[18:53] [PL] Very Good.
[18:53] [PL] Thank You Gentlemen.
[18:53] [PL] Are we ready for the next?

[18:53] [YA] Yes

[18:53] [PL] MusLm: asks 25
[18:53] [PL] questions of RazorsKiss
[18:53] [PL] ready?
[18:54] [PL] You may begin.

Cross-Examination: Positive

[18:56] [YA] 1) After I proved using the Old Testament along with the Quran that the concept of trinity is flawed how can you defend it?

[18:57] [JW] Well, firstly, you didn’t prove it – you assumed it. My issue with the Islamic position is that they assume Unitarianism a priori. Only by your definition of what the “Trinity” means (which I will note you didn’t provide, even when asked) does your “proof” make any sense. This is question-begging.
[18:59] [JW] Your statement presupposes that God “has partners” – which is not our definition of the Trinity. Your statement assumes a meaning of “begotten” which is not supplied by the term “monogenes”. Your statement presupposes the “Trinity” of Mary, of Jesus the Son, and of the Father – by sexual union.
[19:01] [JW] Your statement, while rhetorical, has little to-no argumentative power, given that it has been founded on a complete foundation of straw. We do not claim the Spirit is Mary, we do not claim that Mary had sex with the Father to beget Christ, nor would we ever claim such. The Qur’an’s claim is to that effect.

[19:01] [YA] I mean after I mentioned of OT that God is No likeness of anything on earth or in the skies or underneath the sea, How can Jesus Christ be called God agaisnt the OT verses while having likeness of a man on earth?
[19:01] [YA] (Same Question is explained)

[19:02] [JW] We have never claimed that – historically, of Scripturally – nor will we. The doctrine of the Trinity is founded on Scripture, and has always been founded on that basis. It has been founded on that basis, is attested to by the early church, and is in the annals of history, which my opponent has apparently not examined.

[19:03] [PL] #2?
[19:04] [JW] point of order – is your explanation a second question? The initial question did not contain that information.

[19:05] [YA] 2) although I didn’t get it; yet moving on to next Question… How can Jesus be God and Son of God at the same time… this will mean he is his own son?

[19:07] [JW] This confuses the clear distinction of Person and Being in Christian theology. The Being of God is shared, fully, by all 3 Divine Persons. All 3 Persons are, to their essence, God. I refer you to the succinct definition I gave you earlier for the Trinity. The plurality of Persons is as to personality, not being.
[19:08] [JW] When we speak of the Father “being” God, this is referring to the essence – as defined at Nicea – the same essence. They are all three, in being, God. Personally, they are distinct in operation, in *who* they are, and in *relationship*. There was never a time when the Son was not, there was never a time when the Spirit, or the Father was not *who* they are.
[19:10] [JW] They are, as three persons, also *one* in being. They all share the nature of God perfectly, and fully, and relate to each other as distinct persons. Since this is so, we are not violating the Shema, or the command in Exodus 20 – we are simply returning to what God says in Genesis 1 – “Let *us* make man in *our* image”
[19:11] [JW] In the New Testament, as well as in the Old, we are given the revelation that God is multi-personal. Only if you assume Unitarianism is this problematic – and it is a problem for the Muslim, as we have seen thus far.

[19:12] [YA] 3) After presenting 10s of prooven scientific facts of Quran are you convinced about Quran being a word of God? if Not why?

[19:13] [JW] As to 3 – I’m sorry, but being given random verses from the Qur’an as supposed “proofs” of scientific correlations is unconvincing. For instance, we are told that the planets and stars were “smoke” before they were what they are now. Is this actually the case? Smoke is the result of fire burning matter in air.

[19:15] [YA] Explaining the Q 3… Smoke could mean semi-solid gaseous state.

[19:15] [JW] There is no “smoke” in space, there is no air for it to burn in, and “fire” is of an utterly different order than what we are presented with in the Qur’an. Do stars burn? Yes. Do they smoke? Certainly not. Nebulas are not made of smoke, they are made of gases. The difference is rather profound.
[19:15] [JW] Sir – I was kind enough not to break in during your answers – please be kind enough not to do so during mine. Thank you.

[19:16] [BK] please be sure to wait for the before continuing
[19:16] [BK] resume

[19:17] [JW] Now that I’ve burned a line in my question responding, I think that his explanation is rather ad hoc. Smoke is what results from a fire, in air. Gas is what exists in a gaseous state, in space, or otherwise. Smoke is suspended particulates emanating from a fire, when the material is consumed. They are not identical.

[19:20] [YA] 4) ok; this is just one verse what about 10s of others, so much of evidence is provided; are they Not convincing about Quran being a word of God?

[19:22] [JW] So much was copied and pasted from an Islamic website you mean? As I mentioned in my rebuttal, the points you brought up are, and have been adressed elsewhere – but if you’d like to bring up specific ones, I’d be happy to respond. That’s a very open-ended question. Shall we speak about embryos resembling leeches as a “proof”?

[19:25] [YA] 4) Making it specific; What about Quran mentioning the fact that there is darkness under the ocean?

[19:25] [BK] this is question 5, for the record

[19:26] [JW] Well, considering that Homer spoke of this centuries before Mohammed, does this mean the Odyssey is also inspired?

[19:26] [YA] Q4 is Not answered; So I made it specific

[19:28] [JW] point of order: in any case, next please, while the moderator decides whether that was answered. I answered the next.

[19:28] [YA] Stating the Q4 again… How could Quran mention the fact that there is darkness under the ocean even during daylight. Although this phenomina have recently been discovered using oxygen supplied diving gear?
[19:29] [YA] which Muhammad (S.a.w) didn’t ahve 14000 years agio
[19:29] [YA] ?

[19:29] [PL] I have reviewed #4
[19:29] [PL] Question was answered.

[19:30] [YA] 5) How could Quran mention the fact that there is darkness under the ocean even during daylight. Although this phenomina have recently been discovered using oxygen supplied diving gear? which Muhammd (s.a.w.) didn’t have 14000 years ago?
[19:30] [JW] Once again, I’m not concerned with diving gear or anything else. It’s very apparent that the sea is dark beneath, from where we able to dive, by simple inductive logic. If it grows darker at X feet, would it not grow darker still at x+ feet? Homer stated such well before Mohammed was born, and before the time of Christ. Does this make Homer inspired?
[19:31] [JW] to 5, again – It’s very apparent that the sea is dark beneath, from where we are able to dive, by simple inductive logic. If it grows darker at X feet, would it not grow darker still at x+ feet? Homer stated such well before Mohammed was born, and before the time of Christ. Does this make Homer inspired?

[19:32] [YA] 6) Yet, Muhammad (s.a.w.) never went to any ocean; he lived in the deserts so how could he know this?

[19:34] [JW] Wouldn’t traders speak of this? Even Arabia had contact with Greece, with Rome, or other more educated areas. I’m sorry, I just don’t find this miraculous in the slightest.

[19:35] [YA] 7) After so much of Clerification and explaination what still makes you think Quran is Not the word of God? If Not who is the Author then?

[19:36] [JW] Because it contradicts the Scripture by which even your Qur’an tells us we are to judge. Because it contradicts practically every doctrine of Christianity and Judaism, while claiming to affirm them. Because it does not accord with the Bible, which is my infallible guide to faith and practice. It does not give me truth, but affirms contradiction.
[19:38] [JW] Where is the penalty for sin in the Qur’an? Where is the nature of God affirmed and exalted in like manner? Where doesthe Qur’an affirm the laws of Moses, not abrogate them, and say, like the Prophets of old did – that the sacrifices, and the law, pointed toward a coming Savior? Where is Salvation in Islam?
[19:39] [JW] Where is the Suffering Servant in Islam? Where is the bruised and broken Lamb of God, who dies for the sin of His people? Where is the scapegoat, outside the camp, and sent in our place? Where are the wages of sin? Where is the Word made flesh, who dwells among us, and humbles Himself as a servant, and is exalted back to His place with the Father?
[19:41] [JW] Where is the sacrificial death of the Christ of God, whose body is flogged, crowned mockingly with thorns, and whose bones are not broken? Where is fulfillment of Isa 53’s prophecy that is denied by the Qur’an? Where is the Son of David, the Son of Man, the Son of God, crowned with glory, and worshiped by angels? This is why the Qur’an is not the Word of God.

[19:43] [YA] 8) why do you believe an escape Goat is needed for Salvation? can’t God give Salvation upon good deeds as the Quran mentions in various verses? Can’t God just forgive? why we need to spill the blood of a noble Christ to be sure of Salvation?

[19:45] [JW] Because God demands, and demanded thousands of years before the Qur’an existed, that death was the penalty for sin. Since this is so, we do not accept a ‘revelation’ which overthrows the frequently-attested demand of God for blood in atonement for sin. As I said – where is atonement in Islam?
[19:47] [JW] Not just blood – but the lifeblood. The sacrificial system that the Qur’an ignores is *utterly meaningless* without this concept. Even it, however, is meaningless without the one Sacrifice it pointed to – that of the Word made flesh, the Lamb of God. God is not assuaged by the blood of bulls and goats – it was a sign.
[19:49] [JW] A sign that the Messiah would come, and be slain for His people, by the hand of God, and the willing, sinful hands of men, as atonement for the sins of His people. The entire OT looks toward this one point, and all of history looks backward to it. It is the pinnacle of God’s revelation to men – that He would, as Isaiah says, be “pierced for our transgressions.

[19:54] [YA] 9) Bible mentions that a man asked Jesus Christ about what good should he might do that will achieve salvation and Christ replied keep the commandments… Now According to your logic Jesus christ whould have replied that he should just believe that he will die on the Cross and he will achieve salvation. Why didn’t Chrsit say so to that man?
[19:55] [YA] Why did Jesus Say Keep the commandments?

[19:56] [JW] One, let’s address the context. The man claims to have kept the commandments perfectly. Is this even possible? It is not, of course. Recall that in the sermon on the mount Christ taught that those who sin in their heart are also sinners. Could this man have escaped sin his entire life? I hardly think so. What was Christ’s command to this man?
[19:57] [JW] Go, sell all you have – and follow me. Is this a command of the law? Yes, it is. “Love the Lord your God with all your heart.” Could he do this? No, he couldn’t. He went away sad, because his desire for his wealth was more than that of his desire to be righteous.
[19:59] [JW] The young ruler was very rich – and as Christ says – man can only serve one master. This ruler desired to serve his money more than he desired to serve God. Christ pressed the *spirit* of the law, in opposition to what the young man thought the law was – the letter. As Scripture says, letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

[20:04] [YA] 10) Jesus Christ also clearly mentioned in the Bible that Heavens and earth shall pass yet every Jot or Title of the law shall be fulfilled and that he is here to fulfill the law and Not abolish it. whats your point on that?

[20:05] [JW] MusLm: after this question, let’s suspend while we figure out what we’re going to do.
[20:05] [JW] Okay?
[20:05] [YA] ok
[20:05] [JW] I’ll answer, and you and I and the moderator will exchange some emails.
[20:05] [JW] [back to answer]
[20:05] [PL] Very Well

[20:07] [JW] Exactly, Christ does say this – and as the Messiah, he fulfilled the requirements of the Law for His people, perfectly. The unbeliever is left with the demands of the Law – with no recourse apart from Himself. He is the one who perfectly lived, perfectly died, and did everything the law demanded.
[20:08] [JW] He was the perfect King, the perfect Priest, and the perfect Prophet. He satisfied Justice by paying the penalty of sin, in His own body on the tree. He satisfied the Law by atoning as the Law had always pointed – and took the knife that was suspended over Isaac’s breast into His own, and bore the wrath of God as the Eternal Son.
[20:10] [JW] He was the Incarnate revelation of the invisible God, one in purpose and intent with the Father, and explained the Father to perfection, as is fitting to the Son, and could only be accomplished by the Son. The unbeliever is left with the Judgment of Christ – because they are judged already, as they did not believe in the Son. He will be on that throne.
[20:12] [JW] The believer is given the perfect intercession of the High Priest, the Son of God, Son of Man, who is ever before the Father, interceding for His people, as the priests of old did, in imitation of He who was to come. The law has not passed away – it is fulfilled on behalf of the believer, or it is executed upon the unbeliever.

[20:12] [PL] Very Well
[20:12] [YA] Nice talking
[20:12] [JW] Thank you all very much.
[20:12] [PL] This will conclude tonights portion.
[20:12] [BK] thank you Algo, RazorsKiss and MusLm
[20:12] [JW] We’ll let you know what we come up with – thank you Algo, for being such a trooper! You as well, MusLm.
[20:13] [PL] My pleasure gentlemen.
[20:13] [YA] Thanks Algo, BK, RazorsKiss
—————————————————————-
As mentioned in the previous post, at this point, we are at *8 hours*. My opponent contacted me after question 9 to request that we stop the debate. He was under the impression that we could continue the next day, but obviously, as this took place on a Saturday, church was the next morning – and I work days during the week, for the following days he proposed next. There is a substantial time difference to account for. The unanimous decision of the CH staff was that we impose time limits on the remainder of the debate; which, upon email contact, was refused by my opponent. Therefore, since he didn’t return a further email from Brian, and didn’t show up this previous Saturday, I decided that we’d invested enough time in the affair. Below, I’m going to post the planned questions I had for him, and the outline of my closing statement I had prepared thus far. My is free to answer those questions, as well as submit his own planned questions for me to answer.
—————————————————————-

1. You have stated in the past that there are “over 200 errors in the several-times revised Bible” – can you document this assertion of revision, please?

My opponent’s answers are in italics:

I have read many critical points against Quran but have resolved them and refuted the claims. Although, Bible has many confirmed contradictions and Errors that are Not refutable. Lets check some…

Contradiction in the Bible about number of stalls of horses Solomon had:
Bible 1Kings 4[26] And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.
Bible 2 Chronicles 9[25] And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.

Contradiction about number of Horsemen David took:
Bible 2 Samuel 8 [3] David smote also Hadadezer, the son of Rehob, king of Zobah, as he went to recover his border at the river Euphrates.
[4] And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven hundred horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen: and David houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them for an hundred chariots.
Bible 1 chronicle 18 [3] And David smote Hadarezer king of Zobah unto Hamath, as he went to stablish his dominion by the river Euphrates.
[4] And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven thousand horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen: David also houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them an hundred chariots.

Irrefutable Factual Errors also in the Bible:
Lev 11 [20] All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.

Pornography and Incest fantasy in Bible:
I don’t want to Quote those verses even because I believe reading them is sin! I can present many more errors but even these won’t be answered. I will end the answer by Quoting a verse of Quran:
The Quran 2:79 “Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, “This is from Allah,” to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby.”
This is God warning Those who corrupt the Scripture by editing God’s words for their own political motives.

Earth Round and Flat like a coin according to Bible:
Bible Isa 40 [22] It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.
Jeremiah 16 [19] O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
Job 38 [13] That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
This was a Myth of people at that time that the earth is flat and so reflects Bible. Yet God even at that time should have known that earth is spherical like a ball and Not flat like a coin.

Many other verses can be quoted to prove Bible is Not completely God’s word, yet I think this much is enough.

2. You have stated that Uthman burned variant Qur’an copies due to “variing [sic] fonts” – can you document this assertion, please?
3. Is it not true that the “other Qur’anic materials” were burnt due to the “differences in recitation”? (Al-Bukhari 6:507-510)
4. How does this artificially “unified” textual tradition provide assurance of the Qur’an’s freedom from error, and not just raise more questions?

At the time of 4th Caliphate of Uthman r.a. there were many tribes of Muslims in and around Arabia and they all had variations in their pronunciations of Arabic language. So they recited the Quran in their own accent and also written it as such. Written Arabic was also Not as developed at that time as it is now, Therefore, Uthman r.a. standardized the written copies of Quran by discarding the variations in dialects / fonts act. This should Not make any difference as Quran was in the hearts of hundreds of people (word to word) at that time and there was NO chance of error. Written Quran was Not even needed. Today we can find 12 year old kids who have memorized Complete Quran word-to-word without error. They are called Hafiz.

5. What can you tell me about the transmission of the Scripture’s New Testament text?
6. Given the fact that the New Testament was never under the control of one group, at any time in history, how could it have been corrupted without obvious evidence of this corruption?
7. How do you account for the centuries of early church writers who cited from both New and Old Testaments (as we see them today) prior to Mohammed in your corruption theory?

Transmission of NT matters very little while we have confirmed errors and contradictions in the present book. It’s the job of historians to find the date, location and person who corrupted the scripture. My area of research is Salvation and Logic. And the present errors are a clear evidence of Corruption.

8. Can you give me a list of corrupted verses in the Old and New Testaments, please?

http://www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm

9. Can you document the preceding assertions, please, by providing manuscript evidence of the supposed “corruption” present in these texts?

My opponent did not provide an answer to this question.

10. Who “made it appear to them” that Jesus was crucified and killed in Surah 4:157?

Obviously, God “made it appear to them”. Name of God is Allah (s.w..t) and it is He who has all the might and capability. He it is who provides miracles to His prophets and He is able to perform all things.

11. Why, do you think, does the Qur’an say that Allah made it appear to them?

Allah (s.w.t) wanted to save Jesus Christ (His Rasool on earth). It’s a general law that a Christ / Rasool of God can never be killed although prophet (who is Not a Rasool) can be killed and many have been in history. Jesus Christ didn’t have any Army to support him at the time; So God just raised him up to heavens alive in order to save him from the Jews who wanted to crucify him as they feared loss of their own kingdom. By this act God accomplished 2 tasks: Firstly, Those Jews got what they were looking for (apparently) so they stopped searching further. Secondly, Judas got punished for betraying his master as he should have. Crucifixion was at that time the worst humiliating punishment that befitted Judas and Not Jesus Christ.

12. Does not the Qur’an say that the disciples of Jesus were Muslims, in Surahs 3:52 and 5:111? In fact, in Surah 3, doesn’t Allah immediately afterwards (in Surah 3:55) say that he will make those who follow Jesus superior to those who reject faith?

It’s a general rule of God that He makes superior over others those who follow His prophet / Christ / Rasool and destroys those who reject them (their warning against sin). At the time of Adam (mpbuh), those (of his children) who followed him became successful. At the time of Noa, Those who believed him were made successful, At the time of Moses; those who attested him were made prevalent over the rejecters like Pharaoh. At the time of Jesus Christ, those who affirm faith in God obeying him were made successful. So, today those who will follow Muhamamd (s.a.w.) will be made prevalent over those who reject faith (Quran-based) because today the prophecy is that of Muhammad (s.a.w.) till the end. (mpbuta)

13. If, according to the Qur’an, Allah deceived men into believing Jesus was crucified; did he not also deceive those he himself claims are Muslims; did they not spread a religion centered specifically on the death, burial, and resurrection of this same Jesus, and die for that belief at the hands of the Jews, the Romans, and others?

Those who attested to the faith in God taught by Jesus Christ already knew that Only God is to be worshiped and Not human. They already knew that Salvation will be achieved only by keeping the commandments of God (following Christ) and NOT by worshiping Christ or merely accepting the blood. Faith of those followers of Christ had remained unchanged after crucifixion. This incident only provided a chance to corruptors to get rid of commandments and guarantee salvation just upon accepting blood. Many were deceived due to this.

14. According to the Qur’an, is not Allah, then, the author and sustainer of Christianity, in accordance with Surah 61:14 and Sur 3:55 – or did Allah create and sustain Christianity by accident?

Allah’s (s.w.t) only way is Islam i.e. submission to His will. God has No other religion. Christianity is NO religion even according to the Bible. The word “Christianity” is Not there in any Bible, any Gospel. The word “Trinity” is Not there. So this all fabricated later and was Not taught by Jesus Christ. Today we have Gospel according to Luke, John and Paul act.. What we Muslims believe is the original Injeel taught by Jesus Christ, a Gospel of Jesus in Hebrew language that he spoke. We can Not find it today.

15. However, if as you claim, Christianity was corrupted – you seem to be left with a dilemma – did Allah fail to keep his promise to make Jesus’ followers superior, or did he fail at preserving who he claims were Muslims? By the standard you seem to set, they were those who rejected faith – yet the same persons as those who were Muslims. How do you resolve this contradiction?

Christianity was Not corrupted, torah and Injeel-based Islam was corrupted into Christianity rather. Christians are Not the followers of Jesus Christ as Christ never told them to worship Him or Trinity. We Muslims follow Jesus Christ more than “Christians”. We Worship God alone, we dress modestly, we grow beards, we avoid adultery, we abstain from taking intoxicants and swine. We are circumcised, we try to keep the commandments as Christ instructed. Compare “Christians” with it and you will get the answer. Please refer to my answer of Q 12. , So, today following Torah / Injeel- based Islam (that you refer to as Christianity) is invalid. Like today if a Hindu claims to be following his Vedas calling it a Scripture given to Abraham (mpbuh) 4000 years ago, also mentioned by the Quran and then telling us that we should prevail according to Quran as we are following Abrahamic Scriptures will be invalid. Today is the Prophecy of Muhammad (s.a.w.) and law is the Quran, so anyone who wants to follow God’s commands should follow them. Even Jesus Christ in his second coming himself will have to follow Quran and Muhammad (s.a.w.) as a prophet of time. He will come as a follower of Muhammad (s.a.w.) this time and Not as a prophet.

16. Is it your assertion that “Judas” was substituted for Jesus on the cross?

YES

17. Can you point me to where in the Qur’an that it asserts this?
18. What is your source for this assertion, then?

Quran 4:157 And because of their saying (in boast), “We killed Messiah ‘Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah,” – but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them [the resemblance of ‘Îsa (Jesus) was put over another man (Judas) (and they killed that man)], and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. ‘Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary).

19. Are you aware of the provenance of this “Gospel of Barnabas? It was written no more than 600 years ago – but it claims to be the work of Barnabas, the contemporary of Jesus, Peter, John, and Paul? How do you resolve this?

That’s another major difference of Quran and Bible. In case of Bible men decide which books should be part of it while Quran is 100% God’s word. Even the Arabic words of the Quran are chosen by God Himself along with its sequence.

20. Have you examined the historical claims in the “Gospel of Barnabas”; such as it’s assertion that there were three armies totaling 600,000 soldiers, at a time when the entire Roman army totaled 300,000 – or that Nazareth and Jerusalem were on the shores of the sea of Galilee (Chp 20, 151)? Or that it both confirms and denies Christ’s status as Messiah (Chp 42, 82), as well as his death and resurrection? (Chp 193 vs 216-217)

I just referred to Gospel of Barnabas as a writing of another disciple of Jesus Christ that God could have been referring to in the Quran as being successful. Although, I don’t consider this as a pure word of God.

21. Sir, the Qur’an seems to affirm the status of the Torah and Injeel as Scripture – yet the Qur’an also denies practically every central tenet of this Scripture. Since you can provide me no documentary evidence of your claims to corruption, yet continue to assert this claim, is it not fair to say that this insistence is due to the fact that your Qur’an contradicts itself, but that since you cannot agree with this, you are looking for any explanation but that one?

Please refer to the answer of Qeustion 1.

22. I see your hesitance to agree there, but let me do this. Look at my position, for the sake of argument. I affirm Scripture, which affirms the deity of Christ, His frequent claims to equality with the Father, as well as the need for atonement, in blood, for the *infinite* wrath and justice of God. Is it not faithful to my position that only the Incarnate God could be the sacrifice to satisfy that infinite wrath?

Human sacrifice may have been a part of Red-Indian Jungle culture in history but has NEVER been approved by any prophet of God. The concept of sacrifice is Charity. The Bulls and goats are sacrificed to be distributed among the poor who can Not afford to buy it so that they can also feed themselves and their families with it while pleasing God and thus possibly remitting sins from the person dispensing it. “Christians” due to corruption of Scripture and due to lies of the Church lack fundamental understanding of concepts of Islam taught by Christ.

23. Let me stand on your position, in a similar way, for the sake of argument. From your position, the Qur’an’s statements concerning Scripture’s truth seem only explainable by dismissing them as being about something else entirely. Where that seems to fail, however, is in the fact that the Torah and Injeel prior are wholly unintelligible with those many sections removed. How do you resolve this?

??? ……….I have answered all your questions and I am sure you will Not be able to refute even a single error I have mentioned. Quran is 100% truth perfectly agreeing with logic and modern scientific facts.

24. My friend, I can only say that this position seems unresolvable, as you are standing. As I said in my opener, it seems you must either affirm the Scripture, but not the Qur’an, or affirm neither, and fall to unbelief. By the impossibility of your position, I believe mine is true. Since you cannot prove that the Bible is corrupted, and my position is very much intact, does it not follow that you are left with nowhere to stand?

Please try refuting any of the mentioned errors in Bible.

25. I’m afraid that I cannot agree with you that the Scripture is corrupted, and you’ve shown me nothing thus far that is convincing about your own book. Building a case on unrelated “evidences”, but lacking a foundation can’t make you case, can it? In return, I’ve given you an argument that takes your position apart, from it’s own standard. Scripture has no such issues. Can you answer this problem?

It is very easy to reject truth. My Job as a Da’ee is to present it with convincing evidence. People even reject the existence of God. We Muslims are Not commanded to convert others onto Islam by hook or by crook. If a person accepts truth, it will be of his own benefit and if a person rejects truth after evidence then he will be held responsible for the decision on the day of Judgment before God.

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Now, as you can see, these are “planned” questions, and as such, might have changed in the course of the debate period. The last questions are returning to the initial argument – the transcendental argument, that I was concerned with presenting. I was working on the internal critique of his position, throughout, by showing where his worldview cannot account for reality – primarily, since he was asserting corruption, the Scriptures, versus the Qur’an. Now I’ll share my closing statement outline/notes.

Added 10-17-10: I will be posting a reply to these assertions, including the far over-limit answer to #1, in a further post. I’ve also asked my opponent to submit the remainder of his planned questions, as well.
—————————————————————-
Added 10-24-10: My opponent’s remaining 15 questions from his first round of cross-examination. Answers will be forthcoming.
Added 10-25-10: My answers to my opponent’s 15 questions.

[YA] Question 11: extending Q 10… if Christ followed the law perfectly it is for his own self; he himself will get the reward for keeping commandments Not others. Also as the verse of the Bible says “the righteousness of the righteous will be upon him and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon him”. If We Muslims change Islam into Muhamadanism by start worshiping human and by relying upon the good deeds of the prophet who lived (almost) perfectly then it will be a great blunder. What is your opinion on that?

Note the the question-begging inherent in the extended statement prefacing the question. Note also that the *only* question in this is “what is your opinion on that?” First, if he had asked this in the debate, I would have raised a point of order for making statements instead of asking a substantive question. Secondly, I simply note that he is taking Ezekiel firmly out of context here, as many do. Thirdly, there is a significant difference, even in his own parallel – Muhammad’s righteousness is not perfect, by his own admission, and he seems to be perfectly aware (if confused) of the fact that Christ, in Christianity, is *no mere Rasool*. Yet, for some reason, he believes that despite these issues, there is still a parallel here. I’m not seeing it. Muhammad is not a parallel to Christ, nor can he be. He did not keep the law perfectly, was not able to bear the penalty for the sins of the people of God, as he was but a man, and he was, as was pointed out earlier, a false prophet.

[YA] Question 12: extending Q 9… You mean Christ was wrong while he suggested that man to keep the commandments and he was ineffective? And that he should have instructed him to just wear the cross and be forgiven as your Church preaches?

No, I did not say that, so I did not mean that. I suggest you read that section again. Second, my church teaches nothing of the sort, so I’m at a loss at where I would even begin to respond to such a misrepresentation/misunderstanding of basic Christian doctrine. I’m Reformed and confessional – the wearing of crosses is nowhere in Scripture, or my confession. Forgiveness is due to Christ’s penal substitution for us, in payment for our sins, not for the wearing of a cross. This seems to be wholly a figment of my opponent’s imagination, as even the Roman church does not teach this.

[YA] Question 13: After I quoted the verse of the Quran 69: 44-47 that goes against Muhammad (s.a.w.); how you still believe it to have been written by Muhammad (s.a.w)? please explain?

I extensively argued for the internal incoherence of Islam prior to this point. If my opponent would care to revisit my statements to that effect, he would be in a good position to identify my argument, which is not what he is presenting to you. Yet, I would only point out that he seems to be under a severe misapprehension as to the thrust of my argument. The argument is concerning whether the Qur’an is the Word of God. As even the Qur’an states, “all things in detail” are explained in our Scripture. Since the Qur’an does not live up to 1) The Scripture, which tells us to search it to see if these things are so 2) The Qur’an itself, which tells us as Christians to judge by the Scripture and 3) It’s own standard, which says even Muhammad was told to ask us about the Scriptures, if he had doubts (Sur 10:94)

[YA]Question 14: How can there be No error or contradiction in Quran? If there is any please mention?

I have no idea how there can be no error or contradiction in the Qur’an, as I’ve argued that there is major internal contradiction in the Qur’an this entire debate. I have also waited the entire debate for a cogent argument to the contrary, and have yet to see one. Since we’re now down to

[YA] Question 15: If Quran was written by Muhammad (s.aw.) himself as you say, then why did he mention Jesus Christ and others in his book while affirming their truthfulness rather than praising himself and rejecting others?

First, I’d like to invite my opponent to quote me as saying that. Second, I fail to see how the latter points relate to the former by any stretch of the imagination. Third, he did reject Christ, and quite plainly – by not honoring Christ as he honored Christ’s Father. “But He answered them, ‘My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.’ For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.'” – John 5:17-23

Note: unitarians of all stripes like to use verse 19a to try to “prove” Christ was not incarnate deity – yet they always, always fail to include the context – and I’m hoping to get some actual *exegetical* questions from my opponent by using this passage. Note: The Jews thought He was claiming equality with the Father. Instead of denying the charge, he affirms it! He 1) Says that He is *one* with God – the Son does nothing of Himself, only that which the Father does – in *like* manner. Shows Him *all things*. *Just as* the Father gives the life, so the Son. Greater still, Christ Himself is *Judge*, as the Father gave all judgment over to the Son! To cap it off – He who does not honor the Son (and check the preceding phrase – “even as they honor the Father”) does not honor the Father. So, yes, Muhammad did *not* honor the Son as he said he was honoring the Father. Therefore, by the merciless logic of this passage – Muhammad did not honor the Father.

[YA] Question 16: you have mentioned a website against Islam. I have read a few. I’ll be only able to refute these allegations if you present them one-by-one to me. You think they are valid errors?

I cut and pasted a website in response to your cut and paste opening statement. When you argued it in your own words, I responded. Feel free to do so in your remaining 25 questions to follow these, however.

[YA] Question 17: Now it is clear that Trinity does Not exist. So it matters Not what form is its form or who are the members. If the crime of murder is committed, it matters little as to what tool was used to kill. What’s your opinion on that?

No, it is eminently *not* clear, because neither you nor your Qur’an can define it correctly. It does matter what the form is, and who the members are. If the crime of murder was committed, the victim was logic, and the tool was your argumentation. That’s my opinion on that.

[YA] Question 18: While the quoted verse of Torah says that God has No likeness with anything on earth then how can Jesus Christ who had a likeness of man on earth be compared with God or called God himself?

Christ was not an image created by men. If your logic holds up, then humanity being created in the image of God (Gen 1:26-27, Gen 9:7, 1Co 11:7) was God committing blasphemy against Himself. This is absolutely topsy turvy treatment of Biblical theology. Christ, in Colossians 1:15, is called the “image of the invisible God” – He is the reflection, the express likeness. Christ is the prototokos – the heir of all of creation. Why? The next verses tells us – vs 16-17 – “For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.” THAT is why He alone is *the* image of the invisible God.

[YA] Question 19: There are verses in the Bible where Jesus Christ has No idea of what “Father in heaven” is wanting? If they were same person then how come there be a lack of communication between them?

My opponent has a very bad habit of making very bad paraphrases and expecting me to make his argument for him, since he doesn’t make one, or even state his alleged problem. I’ll state this uncategorically. There is no such verse, and he is plainly mistaken.

[YA] Question 20: Bible also mentions Jesus Christ prostrating face-down to God worshiping Him. So according to your ideology was he worshiping himself? And how can that make sense?

Matt 26;39, where he falls on his face and prays (προσεύχομαι proseuchomai)? Mark 14:35, where He prays? (Same word?) Even if He had προσκυνέω proskyneō – worshiped – what on earth can my opponent do with Philippians 2?

[YA] Question 21: Bible mentions Jesus Christ Crying on the Cross to Allah (s.a.w.) calling Him “Allie Allie lima sabachtani” “Oh God, Oh God why have though forsaken me?” . This shows apparently that the man on the cross did Not know about his crucifixion and was confused and shocked about it? ( this goes against your point-of-view where Christ knows about his own crucifixion and goes to the cross willingly). What’s your view on that?

My view is that my opponent is ignorant of the Psalter. (All credit to Sean Burkes for this answer)

[YA] Question 22: Who could have written the pornography that is in the Bible and why?

Not only is this question appallingly ignorant, but utterly baseless. First, he doesn’t even have the courage to state his objections, but hides behind “it’s too dirty”. If he’d like to actually ask a question, or make an objection – instead of asking if I’ve stopped beating my wife lately – I’d be happy to respond to his objections. Interestingly, only several questions prior, my opponent requested that I bring my questions to him. Since he hasn’t even tried to do so here, I’ll say it baldly – if you have an objection, at least bother to state it.

[YA] Question 23: Bible alleges noble prophets of God like David mpbuh of committing the worst form of adultery i.e. incest with his daughters. How can such a filthy statement be even said against the great noble prophets of God? Who you think has written it?

First, David didn’t commit incest. Second, Lot wasn’t a prophet. David did commit adultery, and was *punished for it, severely*. Notice the inconsistency in my opponent’s argumentation. Allah can say bad things about Muhammad, and that’s a good thing. Yet things in the Bible, that say bad things about prophets – those are just *horrific*. I think my readers can do the math there.

[YA] Question 24: what about the numerical contradictions in the Bible? How you explain them?

Bring one up, and I’d be happy to. As of this response, you have 26 questions left. What about the massive contradiction in your Qur’an? I’ve yet to read a response to that isn’t a hand-wave and a smile.

[YA] Question 25: There is No mention of Jesus Christ or Salvation by Crucifixion in the Torah / Psalms and Jesus Christ was born much after those nations. How you explain it and how will the past nations achieve salvation according to your faith?

First, the initial statement is nonsense. “”Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” John 5:45-47 Second, Isaiah 53. Third, I suggest you actually *read* Psalm 22, and see if it looks familiar. Fourth, I explain it by John 8:56, and Hebrews 11. The saints of old all looked forward to Messiah’s coming, and His salvation. Those who were to come after His death and resurrection looked back to His atonement, and the promise of His resurrection. Once again – as has been evidenced throughout this debate, my opponent lacks even a rudimentary familiarity with Christian doctrine. He knows not what he objects to. Therefore, since he has consistently objected to a straw man throughout this debate, I invite the readers to decide who has accurately and *consistently* dealt with his opponent, and his opponent’s scriptural text. As I said in my opener – he must continually both affirm and deny what he claims to believe – and his inconsistency throughout shows clearly.

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Closer outline:

a) He cannot account for his accusations of corruption
b) He cannot account for the content of Scripture by his presuppositions – 1) He has no concept of atonement for sin, just empty forgiveness 2) He has no answer for the deity of Christ, since he cannot argue in the text per monogenes, or other instances 3) He has no answer for the Trinity, since his Qur’an doesn’t even define it correctly, and thus does not even make a coherent objection
c) Since he doesn’t even make a cogent objection, the Qur’an is self-contradictory in it’s denial and affirmation of Scripture, and his case is entirely evidential, thus relies on human logic as it’s basis, not defining God’s logic as He is, then defining human logic by *that* standard, he has nowhere to stand, has made no case, and is simply standing in thin air.
d) He plagiarizes websites as sources, uses a 15th century “gospel” as evidence, makes empty claims concerning corruption, and denies history by his refusal to go to it – he is also an inconsistent evidentialist.
e) Since he cannot even present a case, cannot argue his case consistently, his worldview is therefore not a sufficient basis for predication, therefore, by the impossibility of the contrary, the Qur’an is not the word of God – Scripture is.
f) Short presentation of the *true* gospel
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Added 10-17-10:My opponent’s closer outline

Quran 3:86 How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and after they bore witness that the Messenger (Muhammad (s.a.w.)) is true and after clear proofs had come unto them? And Allah Guides not the people who deal un-justly.
In the end I would like to pray to God that may He guide the readers of this debate onto the right path and enlighten them with true faith and forgive their past sins. (Aameen)

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That’s it. I hope this was helpful to everyone, and I really hope that my opponent submits his remaining questions and/or answers mine. Thanks!


6 Comments

Is the Qur’an the Word of God – Update | Choosing Hats

[…] those who may not have checked the transcript post I have been adding in additional information garnered from email exchanges – especially, […]

Responses to the assertions of Yasser Ali | Choosing Hats

[…] the debate transcript, I have inserted my opponent’s answers, as I said I would. This post is intended to answer […]

Rhology

My gracious, RazorsKiss. This was a massacre.
Funny – he challenged me to debate the same topic in #pros, and I gave him my email, but he never contacted me.
Oh well, there’s not much else to say after this beating.

Grace and peace,
Rhology

[BLOCKED BY STBV] Ultimate Collection of Free Presuppositional Apologetics Debates (audio and written) | True Forms

[…] Joshua Whipps (Razorskiss) vs. Mitch LeBlanc: http://razorskiss.net/2009/08/debate-transcript/ vs. Dan Marcum: http://www.choosinghats.org/2011/02/sola-scriptura-debate/ vs. Chris Date: http://www.choosinghats.org/2012/06/debate-annihilationism-chris-date-vs-joshua-whipps-2/ vs . Yasser Ali: http://www.choosinghats.org/2010/10/is-the-quran-the-word-of-god-debate-transcript/ […]

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Is the Quran the Book of God? Debate Transcript | Truth2Freedom's Blog

[…] Is the Quran the Book of God? Debate Transcript- This is a very lengthy written debate between a Muslim and Christian on the topic: “Is the Quran the Book of God?” It is well worth a read as it shows the methodology that Muslims frequently use in debates. The cross-examinations, in particular, are highly useful. Although it is lengthy, I do really recommend that you read through this to get a better understanding of the places Christians and Muslims differ. The Christian, I think, did a fantastic job of showing that the Quran claims the Old and New Testaments are inspired, while also showing that one cannot simply claim corruption. The Quran says the Bible is the word of God, but then contradicts the Bible. […]

Ultimate Collection of Free Presuppositional Apologetics Debates | Defense of the Faith

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